Transcript - Bipolar Disorder, Dysregulation, and AI

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Talk Metadata

• Speaker(s): Dave Kerr
• Title: Bipolar Disorder, Dysregulation, and AI
• Event: AI Native DevCon, June 2026
• Imported from: Dave Kerr - Bipolar Disorder, Dysregulation, and AI - AI Native DevCon June 2026.txt

Transcript

00:00 All right. 00:01 So my mate keen said it 00:04 quite last minute would you paper for this conference. 00:08 And I said I'm really busy. 00:09 I've been a struggle to pay for together and a struggle to kind of like talk about 00:13 desk engineering and doing it. 00:15 So I thought, I submit this no chance. 00:18 Fortunately or unfortunately, we're doing this one. 00:24 So I'm going to talk about bipolar disorder, what living with 00:28 it has required me to learn to become aware of. 00:32 And then I'm going to talk about the idea of regulators and dysregulated. 00:35 So these are things that can change or alter your stay physically or mentally. 00:40 These are a lot of ideas that have been in my head for a long time, which is why 00:43 I chose this topic, because I thought I could probably put something together, 00:46 probably not talk about it very well, but at least talk about it authentically. 00:51 So here we go. 00:54 Just a bit of a disclaimer. 00:55 Mental health. It's a complex topic. 00:57 Be kind to each other. 00:59 We don't know what other people are living through or going through. 01:02 Be kind to yourself. 01:03 If you're not sure about yourself or friends or others towards 01:07 a medical professional, or talk to this marathon's very good as well. 01:13 So I said it's about. 01:16 So when I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, 01:20 I didn't agree with the diagnosis and I didn't understand it 01:23 because I thought I polar was kind of like this, 01:27 you know, you're a little bit up, you're a little bit down. 01:30 That was my understanding of bipolar disorder, and that was not 01:34 what was happening with my life or my experiences or my symptoms. 01:39 They were far more complex or far more chaotic. 01:41 There were things that had happened. 01:43 I didn't understand what he did. 01:44 He didn't really remember. 01:46 So what I learned is that bipolar disorder 01:51 can sometimes be more like this, where you can appear well 01:56 and going through normal states or these states can get very, 02:00 very, very intense both up and down and very chaotic. 02:04 And then it can all kind of normalize again. 02:07 So this is it. 02:10 This is what it is. 02:10 It's more disordered. 02:11 And these higher states can be very extreme. 02:14 They can be hypomanic which is just often high energy 02:18 not sleeping, lots of pressure talking this sort of thing. 02:21 They can go into mania, which is prolonged periods of severe impulsive behavior, 02:26 damaging behavior, complex behavior, and it can go 02:30 all the way to psychosis in its most extreme forms. 02:34 In the lower zones, it can be very similar to unipolar depression, 02:39 and it can be similar to major depression or treatment resistant depression. 02:43 And all of these states are complex states to be in. 02:48 So that's what I learned. 02:49 Bipolar could be. 02:51 I also learned it could be like this. 02:53 This would be what type one bipolar might look like. 02:55 So type two bipolar, which is prolonged periods of severe depression 03:00 followed by a kind of uplift in state and then potentially an extreme 03:05 uplifting state again into manic episodes or psychotic episodes. 03:11 And you can 03:12 appear well for a lot of the time 03:15 could also be like this. 03:16 This could be something like type one bipolar disorder, where people 03:19 are in a kind of fairly level state, and then long, prolonged, 03:23 intense periods of severe mania or psychosis. 03:28 So it's complex. 03:30 And one of the challenges is that you often appear 03:33 well when you're managing bipolar well, but you can also get very, very ill. 03:38 So it can be it can also add to the challenge of living with the condition. 03:42 So all in all, what is bipolar disorder? 03:44 I don't know, I did a little bit of research. 03:47 It's highly heritable. 03:48 It's about 70% inherited. 03:50 It destabilizes mood regulation compromises limbic system regulation. 03:57 You have hypersensitivity sensitivity to dopaminergic effects 04:01 which can affect addiction. 04:02 There's intercellular signaling stuff that goes on, which is why things like 04:06 lithium, which is a heavy metal, can actually help treat bipolar disorder. 04:10 There's all sorts of circadian biology. 04:12 There's a there's the effect that's called kindling. 04:14 So kindling is the word you use to start to fire. 04:17 Kindling means that often more people have people will have episodes which 04:20 are clearly caused by a significant event, but each episode is degenerative. 04:25 Each episode damages the brain's neural pathways, meaning that later events 04:30 may seem to be completely unrelated to the external environment. 04:33 So untreated bipolar is a degenerative disorder. 04:37 I hesitated to mention these numbers because they're horrifying, 04:41 but 1 in 3 people with bipolar disorder will attempt suicide, 04:45 and untreated 1 in 5 people will complete suicide. 04:49 So bipolar disorder is a severely complex and damaging and difficult condition. 04:56 I hesitated to mention the numbers because they're shocking and upsetting, 04:59 but also, I think it was important to do justice to the reality 05:02 that some of people are living with. 05:06 So living with bipolar disorder means managing this regulation 05:09 and also what you call wellness management. 05:13 So medication is the first part of this. 05:16 So medication is going to try and limit these peaks and these troughs. 05:22 So this is done by mood stabilizers. 05:25 That will be the foundation of most treatments which will stabilize mood 05:28 as it sounds like it could also be sedatives. 05:32 It could be antidepressants. 05:34 Antidepressants can trigger mania. 05:35 So it might be antidepressants combined with antipsychotics. 05:40 Going on to mood stabilizers can take months 05:42 because you titrate slowly to monitor side effects. 05:45 And it may take multiple attempts as there are different drugs 05:48 and they work very, very different with different people. 05:51 So building a medication regime takes a long time. 05:54 It takes a long time to establish a regime like this. 05:57 And while you're doing that, you're essentially unmedicated 05:60 or partly medicated. 06:01 So these are difficult times. 06:03 However, when you get on to a medication regime, you often 06:06 then have the ability to adjust for yourself 06:09 to kind of manage your own state based on what's going on around you. 06:13 The next hugely 06:14 important thing about bipolar disorder treatment is support its other people. 06:18 So who are the people you trust to know about your condition 06:22 and the symptoms of your condition? 06:23 And who are the people you will give the agency to say? 06:27 You can tell me when I appear unwell and you can tell me 06:31 from my wellness plan what I've said I should be doing. 06:35 Maybe it's adjusting medication or stopping travel. 06:38 And also you may give some of these people agency to say, 06:41 if I don't make the changes that I've said when I'm well, I will do. 06:45 I'm giving you the agency to take control away from me. 06:49 And you do this and you do this in advance 06:53 so that the trauma of that experience is less afterwards. 06:56 It can be traumatic to have freedom taken away from you. 06:59 But if you've agreed in advance that this is the consequence 07:01 of not following your wellness plan, then that gives you a better pathway 07:05 to recover from some of these experiences. 07:10 So support is an essential part of medication. 07:13 Medication on its own without support 07:15 typically fails, and typically a lot of relapse. 07:20 Support also can be therapy. 07:22 It can be doing things like dealing with grief. 07:25 Grief comes from loss. 07:27 With bipolar disorder, you have loss of agency. 07:29 You have loss of self. 07:31 You have loss from the experiences that can happen, 07:34 hypomanic or manic states can lead to a lot of harm. 07:38 They can damage relationships. 07:39 You can spend lots of money. 07:41 You can do very impulsive or risky or dangerous things. 07:44 All of these things have to be processed and may involve processing 07:49 grief and processing your relationships and how you feel about things. 07:54 So support and psychotherapy and the people around you is essential. 07:59 And one of the most effective treatments for bipolar disorder is a regime called 08:03 interpersonal social relationship therapy, 08:07 which is about understanding yourself and the people around you and 08:10 trying to regulate. 08:13 So. Now 08:18 we're going to regulation, which is a key part of this topic. 08:22 So regulation is we've got medication. 08:26 We've got the support of the people around us. 08:28 But regulation is something that you can do for yourself. 08:31 This is when you try to manage the the kind of red lines, 08:36 which are the things that destabilize you and counterbalance them 08:40 with these green lines, which are the things that will stabilize you. 08:45 It's a very active form of treatment. 08:47 You have to kind of commit to doing it. 08:49 You have to take action. 08:50 You have to make changes. 08:52 If you're someone, for example, who I don't know, there's a flight attendant 08:55 that means that you're changing time zones, a lot of changing time zones. 08:59 A lot is actually very dangerous for bipolar disorder 09:01 because it causes sleep to sleep issues. 09:04 And dysregulated sleep is one of the biggest causes of mania or hypomania. 09:10 So it's assets and your ability to engage in these activities 09:14 when you're in an altered state is also compromised. 09:16 If you're very depressed, it can be difficult to do things that lift. 09:19 If you're very manic, you don't necessarily want to come down, 09:23 you're compromised. 09:25 You have a compromise sense of intersection. 09:27 So perception is your understanding of what's around you in terror 09:32 is your understanding of yourself, your internal self, your state. 09:36 And compromised interoception is one of the symptoms of bipolar disorder. 09:43 I don't know how we're doing. 09:44 Any time. 09:45 Could be good, could be bad. 09:47 If it's bad, I'll go to the bathroom. 09:50 So common regulators and dysregulated is the first one is sleep. 09:53 Sleep is one of the most important, essential things to get right. 09:57 Dysregulated sleep is the biggest trigger for hypomania. 10:01 Hypomania will cause more dysregulated sleep, which will be a trigger for mania. 10:05 By the time you're manic, 10:06 you're not sleeping, potentially not for days, sometimes people for weeks. 10:09 And that can be the path towards even more severe 10:12 states like psychosis, followed by by a big crash. 10:16 So sleep, hugely important. 10:20 And managing sleep might mean changing your job. 10:23 So I used to live in Singapore. 10:25 I used to travel to Australia 10:26 at the beginning of the week, sometimes to India at the end of the week. 10:30 That's a lot of time zone shifting, incredibly bad for managing sleep, and I 10:35 had to change the nature of the work that I was doing to to account for that. 10:42 The next one is rhythm. 10:44 So we're incredibly embodied creatures, 10:47 and our psychological state is intimately tied to our physical state. 10:51 So when you eat, when you sleep, when you talk to other people, 10:55 when you do exciting things, when you do calming things, 10:58 all of these things are about rhythm when you exercise and so on. 11:02 A predictable cycle of rhythm is for everyone, 11:06 a way to stay very, very healthy. 11:07 And disruption to rhythm is a very easy way to become dysregulated again. 11:13 Interpersonal social relationship theory therapy is. 11:17 And social rhythm therapy, I mean, is all about managing rhythm 11:21 and all about managing processing things with other people. 11:25 Stress, unsurprisingly, is a big dysregulated. 11:30 Stress can require interventions and changing things. 11:34 Stress comes from chaos, from conflict, but it can also come from excitement. 11:38 It can come from achieving goals. 11:41 It can come from big changes. 11:43 But stress is hard to manage, especially in this world now, 11:47 which will be the next part of the talk. 11:49 The world of AI, the world of stressful AI. 11:53 I keep pressing the button for the next pieces. 11:56 Sorry about that. Substance says okay. 11:59 So substance use disorder in bipolar is very, very, very, very high. 12:03 One of the highest for any psychological condition, psychiatric condition. 12:07 That might be because people are self-medicate with substances 12:11 to control mood, but they will often have a backlash. 12:14 But also the pharmacology that you're dealing with, 12:17 the the medication you're taking, these are also substances as well. 12:20 So they can be regulators, they can be dysregulated, as most people 12:26 or many people with bipolar disorder will suffer from substance use disorder. 12:30 And management of that can be very, very important. 12:34 Next you have awareness. 12:35 So the more aware you are of your states, the more aware you are of how you're 12:40 feeling and also the symptoms and so on is a way to manage your condition. 12:45 It's also awareness of the fact that things can get very, very bad, 12:49 but hopefully they will also get better and more episodes you have. 12:53 The more you realize that you can recover from them, 12:56 and that they don't necessarily mean it's the end. 13:00 People are regulators. 13:03 Sometimes people who know about who you care about, 13:06 who you can be your authentic self with. 13:08 But people can also be dysregulated as people can be chaotic, 13:12 family can be chaotic. 13:14 Friends can be helpful. 13:17 Friends can not be helpful. 13:19 So people is an important part of this. 13:22 But again, they can be a source of conflict and instability 13:27 therapy and integration. 13:28 So this is the other part we spoke about briefly before. 13:32 So how you therapy is how you talk through experiences. 13:35 And then integration is how do you process the things that have happened. 13:39 We all need to integrate complex experiences 13:43 grief, conflict, excitement, achievement, whatever. 13:47 These experiences need to be integrated for us to be able to kind of continue. 13:51 Otherwise, you build a backlog of stuff that you haven't processed 13:54 and become very scattered, very disjointed and very unfocused. 14:00 There are some other surprising things as well that are regulators or dysregulated. 14:05 Goal attainment is known to be quite dysregulated. 14:09 It's an exciting event, but it can also lead to unknowns afterwards. 14:13 It's a big change. 14:14 Change is complex to deal with, so goal achievement can be challenging. 14:19 Changes to your foundational beliefs can also be dysregulated. 14:24 And AI is doing a lot of that. 14:26 And that will be a bit of a theme of what we talk about a little bit afterwards. 14:33 Antidepressant. 14:34 You would have thought good for managing depression, but they're bad for mania. 14:37 So, you know, these things are not necessarily simple. 14:40 Sunny days can be dysregulated because it can affect circadian rhythm. 14:46 We don't get a lot of sunny days in the UK, so maybe that's the right 14:49 place to be. 14:50 But the longer days, the shorter days, 14:52 all of these things can affect sleep and it can't be overestimated. 14:55 How much sleep is important. 14:58 Intense exercise. 15:01 The other one is pregnancy. 15:02 So typically when people are pregnant, they won't be able to take 15:06 mood altering medication. And that's really, really hard. 15:09 That's a tremendous challenge for people going through pregnancy. 15:12 Postpartum can be complex as well. 15:15 Again, we're very we are embodied creatures. 15:17 The hormones that go through us, whether it's through excitement 15:20 or pregnancy or whatever, can change our states enormously. 15:25 So all of these different things are happening. 15:26 And the risks when you get into different states can be extremely severe. 15:32 So what ends up happening is you kind of go through this and start 15:36 to understand it and learn about it is what I've called 15:40 pathology happiness. So 15:43 when you're starting to get more happy, more excited, 15:47 having more fun, getting more engaged with things, really, really getting 15:51 into things, you start to pathologies that am I going into hypomania? 15:55 Am I going into mania? 15:58 Am I overexcited by this and my overstimulated by this? 16:01 Am I losing myself in this too much? 16:04 Is this a safe place to be? 16:05 Do I need to downshift? 16:07 Do I want to downshift because this feels like a great place to be? 16:11 Hypomania is an incredibly exciting 16:13 and it's awful to say, but wonderful state to be in. 16:17 You're happy, you make friends, you care about the people around you. 16:21 All new experiences are exciting rather than frightening. 16:25 You're creative. 16:26 You're doing more exercise. You're seeing more people. 16:29 So you don't want to avoid being in states that make you happy. 16:32 But you also know that these states can lead to worse states. 16:37 So you pathologies constantly. 16:39 You're always monitoring what's around you, always monitoring how you're feeling. 16:43 And if you've ever gotten into a state of monitoring, am I feeling happy? 16:47 How am I feeling happy? Am I feeling too happy? 16:50 That itself is quite anxiety inducing in a bit of shit, so 16:54 you often end up getting quite depressed from that, because this constant attention 16:58 and this constant checking into states is a sort of manic thing, 17:02 and it's not a particularly happy state to be in. 17:07 So you ask yourself. 17:08 Am I shutting myself out from the outside world? 17:10 Am I not having the social contact that I used to have 17:14 and my beliefs changing enormously? 17:17 And that's when I'm going to transition now into AI, 17:22 because talking to lots of people in the world of AI, 17:26 engineering or whatever, there's a lot of this change 17:29 in state excitement, but also lack of focus and so on. 17:34 So that's going to be kind of the theme of what we talk about next, 17:37 what the this regulators are that I'm hyper aware of and that I see 17:42 in the world of AI and sort of reflect on how it feels for myself. 17:47 But I also see these states in other people. 17:50 I see other people in states that feel grandiose 17:53 or hypomanic or overexcited or disconnected. 17:57 I see a lot of behavior around me, which is exciting. 17:60 I also see behavior which is maladaptive, and if it was me performing 18:04 that behavior, 18:05 I would actually be concerned and be thinking about what do I need to do 18:09 to downshift and control this and intervene on this one? 18:16 So there we go. 18:17 Bin pathologies, everything. 18:19 The world of AI people are changing. 18:22 The way people are acting is changing. 18:25 The way people are focusing or the way people are collaborating is changing. 18:29 So what are some of the dysregulation or the things that can just regulate? 18:34 So the first one I worked at a therapist called Margot Forum, 18:39 and she has a severe type one bipolar disorder. 18:42 And one of the things she told me that was quite surprising 18:44 is that foundational changes in your core beliefs can be profoundly dysregulated. 18:49 So she went on a kind of four day meditation retreat. 18:54 There was a very intense experience for her. 18:56 It was followed immediately by a severe psychotic episode. 18:60 Five minutes left 19:03 AI itself. 19:04 The way it's changing us is dysregulated. 19:07 It's changing our beliefs. So how do you deal with this? 19:09 I'm going to go a bit faster now, and maybe skip 19:11 through a few of the less interesting ones. 19:13 You have to integrate experiences. 19:15 How do you feel about this? Is it making you happier? 19:17 Is it making you less happy? Is it changing your behavior? 19:21 Addiction? 19:22 I won't go into this too much. 19:23 Then the short cycle dopamine loop a lot of people have spoken about with AI. 19:27 It is very, very addictive to have this fast reward mechanism. 19:31 There's lots of material out there about how to deal with addiction. 19:34 People with bipolar disorder are much more likely to suffer from addiction 19:39 grandiosity. 19:40 I'm going to spend less time on that one, 19:41 because I think I have a better section that talks about this. 19:45 This one I'll talk about, in my own way, aggression 19:48 and competitiveness, a symptom of these highly elevated states. 19:52 The world of AI is pretty aggressive. 19:54 So I read an article by someone saying, like, I've asked a bunch of people 19:58 in my organization, I've only got space for the 100 X developers. 20:01 Everyone else is not as important. 20:03 Now that's pretty aggressive. 20:05 These 100 X developers, are they the best developers or are they 20:08 just the most noisy ones who are saying that no one else is collaborating? 20:12 This capitalist environment we're in actually fosters 20:15 aggression and competition. 20:17 So how do you deal with that? 20:19 Have empathy with other people? 20:20 Don't don't fight them. How are they feeling? 20:23 Are they enjoying this world and also have fun? 20:25 Not everything has to be competitive. 20:27 We're supposed to enjoy our lives. 20:30 Attentional. 20:31 So a great grind. Poor band. 20:33 It means death by a thousand cuts. 20:35 I'm going to briefly talk about this because you probably know about it. 20:38 Your attention just gets destroyed. 20:40 Short cycle work that you're doing. 20:42 Being able to work on everything kills your attention. 20:46 We're constantly multitasking. 20:48 I think most of us are feeling things like this. 20:50 So how do you deal with it? Focus. 20:52 Creating space for the work that you're doing. 20:57 Running tasks to completion. 20:59 Recognizing when you're engaging in displacement activities. 21:02 Prioritizing. 21:03 Creating protected, time 21:06 pressured speaking. 21:09 Wolfs get past this one, 21:11 except for the fact that your AI speaks to you like someone who's on cocaine. 21:15 It's like nonstop doesn't listen. 21:18 No space to interruptions. That's pressured speaking. 21:21 It's awful to listen to. 21:22 What's even more awful is when a bunch of your colleagues 21:25 take all the pressure speaking from their AI 21:28 and throw it at you, and then you're like, God, it's coming from all directions. 21:30 So what do we do about that compressed signal to noise? 21:33 Like, what's the high level message? What should this mean? 21:36 Not what's the 30 pages of stuff that is your stream of consciousness 21:40 that I don't necessarily want to see? 21:43 So this is the key one. 21:44 I'm interested in maladaptive creativity. 21:47 So this is going to get a bit philosophical mental model. 21:51 On the left is me building a system my my model of it mental model on the right. 21:57 In the middle is the system itself similar but different. 22:01 Next mental model is the model my colleague has. 22:04 They're slightly different, but they're sort of roughly in sync. 22:08 Because we talk a lot, we make small changes. 22:11 We have to look at what we've written. 22:13 Now, when AI does a lot of this for you and it does it very fast, 22:16 the mental models start to look like this. 22:18 One person can create this palace of stuff. 22:21 They don't really necessarily know what's in it. 22:24 What they've created is very different to their mental model. 22:27 The mental model from the person who is trying to understand 22:30 it is even more different when people say to me, you don't need 22:33 to review pull requests, you don't need to review specs. 22:36 That's that's wrong. 22:38 You do, because it's not about quality control. 22:41 It's about engaging with the mental model so that they can see what someone 22:45 has built and how it works. 22:47 Because part of my job and your jobs is also 22:50 to understand that system so that we can fix it and maintain it. 22:53 This is the hardest thing to manage, but it's the thing that I think 22:56 will help people the most. 22:59 So you share, you collaborate, you build your models together. 23:03 So here we go. 23:04 Bipolar disorder, dysregulation and AI challenges, 23:08 but also things that you can do about it. 23:11 I'll finish now with some awful things. 23:13 I brainstorm some of this with AI if I write everything myself by hand. 23:16 But it came up, it was riffing on some ideas. 23:19 Tokens are cocaine. 23:21 Okay, not very sensitive. 23:23 How I learned to stop shipping and love the spec and kind of. 23:27 All right. 23:28 Hypomania driven development. 23:30 Very tasteless. 23:32 Really tasteless engineering with a brain on fire. 23:36 The magic and madness of agentic engineering. 23:41 Thoughtless. 23:42 And then this one. 23:43 Three agents for work. 23:45 Trees, two laptops, no sleep code shipped. 23:48 Marriage didn't all caps. 23:53 When I said this is all shit, it said. 23:56 Lesson noted. 23:57 Drop drug metaphors drop wonder framing on psychological topics. 24:01 I treat them with care. 24:02 So that's it. 24:04 Thank you. Thanks for your attention. 24:16 Thank you so much 24:17 for honest, very exposed to talk. 24:21 That was hugely interesting. 24:23 Somebody who devoted myself as well. 24:25 So I went to yes, 24:30 there is a lot of stress out there that works and models for anything to do. 24:35 So does anybody have any questions. 24:39 Can we get a look at this. 24:43 Or I can repeat the question 24:44 if that makes it easier. 24:57 I'll start again. 24:58 You talked about transforming your court release 25:01 being quite dysregulated. 25:04 I'm wondering whether 25:05 that includes things like sort of moments of resolution 25:09 in sort of if you're working 25:12 in science or something creative, 25:15 when you're a bit flips in your head and you see the world differently. 25:20 I mean, to me those moments are almost what I live for. 25:24 I think just they feel brilliant. 25:27 But is that the kind of thing that you're talking about? 25:29 Well, it's exactly that. 25:30 It can feel brilliant. It can feel like everything has changed. 25:33 There's so much scope to do different things. 25:35 It leads to that real, real excitement that can kind of take you down 25:38 these paths. It's not to say that they're bad. 25:40 Once you've had these beliefs changed, you might learn a lot more 25:44 and know a lot more. 25:45 It's just that that's likely going to be 25:47 counterbalanced with how do you integrate that? 25:49 How has the world changed for me? 25:51 Am I at peace with that? 25:52 What's my role in this new world? 25:54 So none of these things are necessarily intrinsically bad, but they may require 25:59 that kind of counterbalance of space afterwards. 26:03 Thank you. 26:10 Should I go? 26:13 You talked about collaboration, and working with 26:15 LLMs and agents is inherently very solo activity. 26:20 Have you found any good ways to 26:23 build in collaboration into workflows? 26:26 Yeah. 26:27 So at the divergent stage where you're thinking about lots of ideas, 26:31 maybe that's something that's solo. 26:33 When you've got your ideas and you're starting to think about 26:35 turning it into a specification or a plan, that's 26:38 when you move into a convergent phase with another person. 26:41 I've had these ideas. 26:42 How can we narrow the aperture? Aperture? 26:46 Sorry, I work at McKinsey, 26:47 so how can we narrow that down to something that we can understand? 26:51 And also can we do a hand off? 26:53 You came up with the idea you've built the specification with me. 26:56 I'll move to the implementation. 26:58 Well, you then take the implementation 26:59 and tell me if it's okay and if it's ready to be integrated. 27:03 The fact that AI can offload 27:05 toil should actually mean that we get more space to collaborate. 27:09 So all of my standups are one hour because we don't need to go through 27:13 the small bitty things. 27:14 We can use it as kind of pair 27:15 programing or pair specifying sessions or to talk over these things. 27:19 So I think there are some techniques, but I think it's the biggest challenge 27:22 that I see in terms of the tech world we're in, the breakdown of collaboration. 27:27 Yeah. Thank you. 27:36 Have you 27:36 found or would you be able to share any specific prompts 27:40 or maybe agents or things that would help you 27:45 or us regulate our mood and, 27:48 you know, sort of control our, our feelings? 27:53 I, I mean, I'm using AI mostly to build software, 27:57 but for me, what's important to regulate is more how I do that. 27:60 I do it in the mornings. 28:01 That's my creative time. 28:03 I rarely have my laptop open from about 5:00 onwards 28:06 and I won't be doing creative work then. 28:08 At that point, I need to be kind of 28:09 transitioning down into a state where I'm less stimulated. 28:14 So some of this is about saying to AI, don't give me lots of information, 28:18 give me some more pieces and I will direct where we go next. 28:21 Other parts of it are simply about when you decide to switch off and say, 28:25 I'm not going to listen anymore, I need time to kind of go 28:28 away, calm myself down, and then I'll come back to it tomorrow. 28:31 So creating space, but also creating friction, which is also 28:35 how people manage addiction, is to create friction in systems. 28:42 And. Yeah, that's that's fine. 28:49 I don't reset advice. 28:52 So when you are in the going to day day. 28:55 Thanks for.